Curse

Lanier · Aug 25, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

I don't see why it matters if monks have torm weps and voltaic spears. They are generally used for more than a way to show off epeen, seems to be jealously rather than a vailid point for an arguement.

Ok then, you care to explain why you think this? The only reason why I would be jealous is if I wanted them for my own monk and if I wanted them for my own monk then I would buy them for my own monk. Money isn't exactly tough to come by in this game, and I have the money to obtain those items. That said... I would rather not look like the clone army of monks in obby armor with chaos gloves, and those 1337 weapons. Im perfectly happy with my elite labrynthine + elite luxon hybrid armor set with a greater guardian spear and an enameled shield

.

Anyways... back on topic.

I still don't understand why a change like this would be necessary. Shield + Sword sets arnt exactly unhealthy for the game. They arn't causing balance issues and taking them away would just make pvp faster paced which is not something im for.

Spiritz · Aug 25, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

plz dont forget to add - when u use a weapon below req you do bugger all damage to a foe - wow im a sf sin who does 1 - 2 dmg with a staff against a lvl 20 foe in hm .
Where does it state that a non warrior hasnt the str to pick up a damn shield ?
i can probably hold and fire a bow - doubt it would hit target , i can probably get in a car and turn it on tho i cant drive.
Hell why not go a step further - as you seem to hate the idea of not being stuck to reqs why not make armor the same - fow warrior armor can only be worn if your say req 16 str .... nah i didnt think you would go for that - being stuck in crap looking armor coz you cant use the fow armor as your build wants tactics not strength.
Anet in their infinite wisdom somehow decided how certain off hands work - shields have a certain mod area and caster offhands same - but both are totally different in parts - shields give extra armor but nothing towards caster use and same for casters except a slight armor increase.
why not make offhands universally modable - maybe drop the shields armor and the offhands energy and have it so you have +ar mods for both , energy mods and so on and that way you choose how the shield works - be it as a shield or as an energy booster.Same with swords/wands/staves/scythes etc etc .

Btw grumpy - i own a vs spear which was a gift from my wife , i dont parade around with it as its just a weapon which i use , i dont parade around showing off what elite armors i have - if a guildie says "oh a vs spear" i just agree and leave it at that .. no bragging as its just a weapon and one that the public decided costs xxx plat.
A huge amount of gw players dont give a rats ass about how cool this armor is or that weapon is - all that went out years ago ( oooo fow armor you must be cool or ooo tormented shield ).

*lemming* · Aug 25, 2010, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

On-topic: I fail to see how this will make the game any more balanced, in my opinion it only further imbalances it. Why should squishy profs be made even squishier (profs with 60 armour). When you're getting beat on by a war, why shouldn't you have some extra def against him without having to spend the att points? Why should a war have to spend the points so he can use a spear to build adren? Also going off your theory, anet would have to introduce staves for sin atts like Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes so they can use the enchantments they have in those attributes.

The point is that casters have been too nonsquishy for the past two years. There's no aegis anymore, but that doesn't matter when warrior autoattacks only do 15 damage to squishies sitting in their shield sets. It's part of what has slowed the game down to the point where pressuring through party healing is virtually impossible.

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

I don't see why it matters if monks have torm weps and voltaic spears. They are generally used for more than a way to show off epeen, seems to be jealously rather than a vailid point for an arguement.

On-topic: I fail to see how this will make the game any more balanced, in my opinion it only further imbalances it. Why should squishy profs be made even squishier (profs with 60 armour). When you're getting beat on by a war, why shouldn't you have some extra def against him without having to spend the att points? Why should a war have to spend the points so he can use a spear to build adren? Also going off your theory, anet would have to introduce staves for sin atts like Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes so they can use the enchantments they have in those attributes.

there are enchanting daggers my friend. as per your point about adrenaline, i disagree. i think you should have to put points in to get the adrenaline bonus. so the hammer/sword warrior or monk with an adrenal stance would have to have those points in those weapon attributes in order to get the bonus from the weapon.

HawkofStorms · Aug 25, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

It's not like this is a bug or something.

This is how a.net planned and designed and balanced the game from the beginning.

/notsigned

You haven't actually shown how this change would benefit... anything. Change for the sake of change is meaningless

*lemming* · Aug 25, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

This is how a.net planned and designed and balanced the game from the beginning.

I highly doubt that Anet forsaw monks running around with 100 AL five years ago.

Really, if you know anything about GvG, it's not balanced very well around autoattacks being useless, and conventional wisdom is correct in suggesting that the game rewarded proper warrior play more when maximizing number of autoattack hits actually meant something.

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

@HawkOfStorms:
this person summed it up perfectly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

As an approximation, the +8 armor from an unmodded shield is about a 13% reduction in damage. If you meet the requirement and get +16, there's a 24% reduction in damage. If you receive 100 damage (before the shield) and don't meet the requirement, you take 87 damage. If you have the attribute, you receive 76 damage. The qualified guy resisted 24 points, twice what the unqualified guy resisted, which makes sense in a certain way.

However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here.

When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute.

if we get rid of the 8 armor that monks are getting using a shield or any class for that matter it fixes a lot of things. i also think having to put points in weapons helps too. a monk that uses adrenal stances is a perfect example. they shouldn't get the 10% spear head mod bonus if they don't meet the requirement to the weapon. why? they don't do any real damage with the weapon with no points in it, why should they get the adrenal bonus? why should they get the +5 energy or the 20% enchanting or +30 health? making players use the weapons that are intended for their builds would go a long way to making the game fall more in line with how it was designed to be played. I hope that sums up how i feel about the subject.

Moonstalker · Aug 26, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

I don't like the idea.
It's been this way for over 5 years, I don't think it needs a change now.

Johny bravo · Aug 26, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I think this has been said already but attribute points show you have a certain level of competence in an particular area. In this case we are talking about shields. In the real world if I had a shield and didn't know how to effectively wield it I would still be able to use it to some extent. So it makes sense the way they have it now, no need to change it

Luminarus · Aug 26, 2010, 06:13 AM // 06:13

I know that if you dont meet the req of a weapon its damage reverts to that of a starter weapon. However, correct me if im wrong but a starter shield isnt 8 armor. I think thats the issue here, it should follow all other weapons and revert to starter which iirc is 3. Thus hitting that break point for the shieds req would give a significant bonus.

Unless im wrong with the req thing...

Desert Rose · Aug 26, 2010, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

I know that if you dont meet the req of a weapon its damage reverts to that of a starter weapon. However, correct me if im wrong but a starter shield isnt 8 armor. I think thats the issue here, it should follow all other weapons and revert to starter which iirc is 3. Thus hitting that break point for the shieds req would give a significant bonus.

Unless im wrong with the req thing...

Most weapons have better stats than starter weapons when not meeting the requirement, i.e. a sword I tested deals 5-7 damage insteat of the damage of a starter sword.
More

gremlin · Aug 26, 2010, 10:41 AM // 10:41

If GW had realistic armour rules it would be the right way to go but it doesn't.
Shields would protect against attacks from the front and or left side since all GW characters are right handed and bigger shields would cover more body area.

Shields in GW are not really armour they are a focus item giving protection in a magical way much as Runes and inscriptions do.
The rules that go for all the other focus items should apply.

Wish Swiftdeath · Aug 26, 2010, 11:03 AM // 11:03

This doesn't have any effect on the armor of monks in GvG since anyone serious has 7/15 or 8/16 shields.

Shieldswapping is an important skill to have since when your whole team does it, effectively it can take alot of pressure off your team and monks especially. Shieldswapping is another way in which good teams can differentiate themselves from the bad, the game should reward skillful play and encourage people to get better, not dumb down the game so that people can just camp their 40/40 sets.

Desert Rose · Aug 26, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

That's what wiki says:

I know what wiki says, but read the link, I've already proved that at least the second line is wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised if the first one is false too.

MithranArkanere · Aug 26, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

I'd rather have them give the full armor (16) when both the requirement is met and the customization is done.

1. It doesn't affect PvP characters and created items.
2. It gives a reason to customize them and remove new ones from the market.

That way, if you don't cutomize it, and do not meet the requirement, you only get the stats from the mod. If you either meet the requirement or customize, but not both, you only get 8 armor.
And if you have both, you are unnafected, and shields behave normally.

Same for focy: 12energy, 6, and none.

jazilla · Aug 26, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I'd rather have them give the full armor (16) when both the requirement is met and the customization is done.

1. It doesn't affect PvP characters and created items.
2. It gives a reason to customize them and remove new ones from the market.

That way, if you don't cutomize it, and do not meet the requirement, you only get the stats from the mod. If you either meet the requirement or customize, but not both, you only get 8 armor.
And if you have both, you are unnafected, and shields behave normally.

Same for focy: 12energy, 6, and none.

i like this. it would remove a lot of items from the market too. this way you would have to be serious about that q8 and not just power selling.

The Drunkard · Aug 27, 2010, 01:48 AM // 01:48

The only thing that would come from this is that wintergreen shields, and to a lesser extent peppermint shilds would inflate in price dramatically.

/notsigned

jazilla · Aug 27, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

The only thing that would come from this is that wintergreen shields, and to a lesser extent peppermint shilds would inflate in price dramatically.

/notsigned

umm and 24% more damage done to a target that doesn't meet a req. those shields exist on such a minimal level.

PahaLukki · Aug 27, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I agree with this. But with slightly different idea of it.

So you have a shield that needs 13 strength... but you got 0, so you get... 0 defense for your lack of strength... err or lack of motivation (meh ugly shield). But what if you have 7 strength? Then you just get 7/13 of the defense the shield gives.. How's that? Directly in proportion. Why not?

Morphy · Aug 29, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

That would make Wintergreen Weapons even more awesome.